Sanctuary rooms for women subject to domestic violence

[Feverfew]

Does anyone else think this is a completely mad idea?

As soon as I heard it, I imagined either the woman being locked in the room with her attacker if he followed her in there, or the attacker setting the house on fire while the women is locked in her 'safe room'.

it sounds crazy to me, and doesn't even begin to address the cause of domestic violence ie the attacker and (often) alcohol consumption.

Be interested to here what others think.

[Welsh Gardener]

I agree totally FF. When I first heard it on the news this morning, I thought I had heard wrongly.

This is domestic imprisonment of a vulnerable person. Imagine being a child in a house where 'mummy has to lock herself with/without children away from daddy'.

This does nothing to either address the problem or help the person.

Awful.

WG

[V8farty]

I think they are a very good idea. It’s somewhere safe and quiet after you’ve had a real ear bashing.

Dunno about being exclusively for women though.

[Helen May]

I agree with both of you on this. The woman should be helped to get away from the situation, not be locked up inside it.

Crazy idea.

H

[teaserh]

How stupid - typical idea from people who have never been attacked by a man who is holding onto your hair, whilst he hits and kicks you, whilst dragging you from room to room.

try getting into a safe room from that position!

also if the man is not in the house, but trying to get in, I agree it would inflame hime to set fire to the house in frustration.

Deal with the reasons men think they have the right to kick the shit out of a woman, and jail them for GBH the first time for the same length of tme as if they did it to a man.

[V8farty]

Might be well worth looking at the reasons some women are stupid enough to be attracted to such cretinous men

[teaserh]

I worked with a lady who went out with someone, who during the whole 2 years they went out, were engaged, never was hit or mistreated once.

When they got married, he beat her up on the honeymoon, and even though she left him after a couple of months of abuse, continued to stalk her, damaging her car, front of the marital home (even though she took an injunction against him to stop that).

He gave no signs of being an abuser until it came to late.

She has since moved - left her job and friends to get away from him.

Not all women are attracted to that type, they just find themselves in a situation that is appalling.

[Rabid]

I note there is a Minister for Women.

Would we get away with a Minister for Men without a Minister for Women as well?

Is sexism one way like racism?

[Russell WR]

Yup, V8, and then making a career out of demonising men in general.

[V8farty]

Hmmmmmmmmmm.
I think if someone likes beating the shit out of women, they show signs quite early on & women still say stupid things like “But I still love ‘im”

[teaserh]

it's a bit like a murderer - people say they can't believe he did it as he never showed any sign until he struck

some people are very calculating - almost to a cruel degree

some men target women who are a very dependent personality, and then cultivate them by wearing down thier confidence to a degree they think its there fault.

Some women do believe that there men are showing love if they are hit, as the up bringing they had imprints this on thier psyche

Theres none so strange as folk!

[V8farty]

Some women do believe that there men are showing love if they are hit, as the up bringing they had imprints this on thier psyche

As I said, some stupid women out there.

[Rabid]

But why aren't these refuges available to men?

[Feverfew]

There are indeed some 'stupid' women out there who remain with violent partners in spite of the terrible situation they are in.

But in terms of apportioning blame, I think any reasonable person would agree the blame lies fairly and squarely with the attacker, as there is no excuse for using violence on someone.

You can just walk away.

[Boy Perkins]

The introduction of IDAP (the integrated domestic abuse programme) is geared to helping in these situations which are nearly always far more complex than they appear at first sight.

Where the perpetrator is also the provider, for example, then locking him up and leaving mum and 4 kids without support is not always sensible.

Likewise the victim may not be able run away so easily...

It is a very difficult problem to address ...

[Wizard's Sleeve]

Perhaps the woman should just stab the man and have done. I'm sure the courts would be suitably lenient.

[Feverfew]

Perhaps the woman should just stab the man and have done.

Yup. he'd deserve it.

[Boy Perkins]

Perhaps the woman should just stab the man and have done. I'm sure the courts would be suitably lenient.

Well if that is how they do things in Hartlepool the crime statistics must be fascinating...

[Helen May]

Sorry if I have missed something, but where does Hartlepool come in to it? :?

H

[Boy Perkins]

Sorry if I have missed something, but where does Hartlepool come in to it? :?

H

Original posting by person who claims to be located in Hartlepool... Not that I have ever been there or have anything against the place... May even be quite pleasant?

[Rabid]

I have.

It isn't.

[Ian Mac]

Examples of wife beating tend not to start with violence in the early days, but more, the husband making little snide remarks about how the wife looks, or having little digs at her in public so that she becomes the centre of attention and starts to feel self conscious.

Women who end up battered tend to have been undermined over a period of time so that when the violence starts, they have few friends and even less confidence in themselves to get out of it.

The safe room or whatever it's called, Is a non-starter. The woman would be too terrified of angering her man and the price she'd have to pay when she finally emerged, or worse, the price her kids might be forced to pay while she hides.

Jail the scum with or without the womans help.

[VictorLaslo]

So how do we determine the necessity for one of these bunkers?

Is it based on how psychotic the partner of the prospective victim is?

‘Ok Mrs Doormat, you’re living with a total nutjob, get on with it as best you can, if he goes over the top a bit, lock yourself in here and press the panic button’

Ps, In Hartlepool we hung a monkey, Rabid lost an uncle.

VL

[Rabid]

Vic

No need to be defensive, I'm sure oyu think Hartlepool's lovely.

It just isn't.

Not even Seaton.

[VictorLaslo]

Vic



Not even Seaton.

WHAT? all those miles of golden sand?............well after the sea-coalers have been and got all the black stuff into the back of their landrovers.

[Rabid]

I walked around a small shopping centre - I've never seen so much graffiti and steel shuttering.

And the road to Hartlepool was lined by a veritable avenue of belching chimneys.

Lovely compared to Middlesbrough I suppose.

[VictorLaslo]

Now bloody well look here, I've just about had enough of this nonsense. If you're not careful I won't be joining you for a drunken sing song over the Christmas period.


Vic.

[Boy Perkins]

Sounds just beautiful....

[teaserh]

Wife beating dosn't justy happen in towns like the wonderful, tourist trap Harlepool - but in some of the best homes in the country, found in the most expensive and sought after post codes.

Some very famous men have been up for assaulting thier women - remember Paul Gasgoine.

And I belive Collimore did a number on Ulrika.

Come to think of it they are both footballers, is there a pattern forming here?

[Lord Evan Elpuss]

Will men be able to use these rooms when the reverse situation happens?

[Boy Perkins]

"Come to think of it they are both footballers, is there a pattern forming here?"

Just the sort of irresponsible speculation which the Daily Mule is so famous for. Attempting to tar a sector of the public with the behaviour of two isolated cases.

Maybe we should be more concerned with the pattern forming among unthinking contributors to message boards. And you don't know whether I am joking or not either...

[Boy Perkins]

Will men be able to use these rooms when the reverse situation happens?

Whilst the reverse is not frequent it does of course happen. However instead of having a saucepan thrown at them, the man is more likely to have a fat fryer full of boiling oil thrown at them!! Maybe exaggerating slightly but the consequences usually need more than just a room. Women and men are different in their domestic violence behaviour usually so not easy to replicate treatment...

[Lord Evan Elpuss]

'Whilst the reverse is not frequent it does of course happen. However instead of having a saucepan thrown at them, the man is more likely to have a fat fryer full of boiling oil thrown at them!! Maybe exaggerating slightly but the consequences usually need more than just a room. Women and men are different in their domestic violence behaviour usually so not easy to replicate treatment...'

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I still think it should be discussed and treated with as much seriousness as when the male attacks the female of the partnership. It never seems to be though.

[Boy Perkins]

It really is addressed. It doesn't get reported in the papers though; so what's new? We really do get a very distorted view of this country of ours... Clear example is almost 10 people killed every day on our roads, but that isn't news. Still people are driving around whilst using mobiles, drunk or under drug influence and the rest of us are more worried about being mugged than driving to the next town... Bizarre!

[Helen May]

The mobile phone situation really annoys me.

I rarely use mine so maybe that's why. ;)

H

[teaserh]

"Come to think of it they are both footballers, is there a pattern forming here?"

Just the sort of irresponsible speculation which the Daily Mule is so famous for. Attempting to tar a sector of the public with the behaviour of two isolated cases.

Maybe we should be more concerned with the pattern forming among unthinking contributors to message boards. And you don't know whether I am joking or not either...


As discussed on this message board - one fo the first things an abuser does is belittle the women - often her opinions in a snide and agressive manner, to try and knock her confidence whilst building up his own.

This is then followed by an aggresive arguement where the man makes the women believe that it is her fault if she answers back - even in a constructive or jockular manner (trying to alleviate the serious situation).

However the man does not wish to be led into a situation to calm the waters by the women - he wants to test his power further - by really getting abusive verbally - maybe by making fun of the way she looks, what she reads or believes, how she walks or talks.

Next stage is the 'in your face' invading the womens space in an intimidating way.

Cutting off the women from family and friends who may be of support - isolating her and making her feel alone and dependent on the abuser is a very strong sign.

All the above is done to reduce the women to complience and to puff up the male and make him feel important, strong, intelligent and in control. Whilst in reality he is an egotistical inadequate, who likes to bully people to make him feel important.


Does the shoe fit? Recognise yourself there?

[Boy Perkins]

"Come to think of it they are both footballers, is there a pattern forming here?"

Just the sort of irresponsible speculation which the Daily Mule is so famous for. Attempting to tar a sector of the public with the behaviour of two isolated cases.

Maybe we should be more concerned with the pattern forming among unthinking contributors to message boards. And you don't know whether I am joking or not either...


As discussed on this message board - one fo the first things an abuser does is belittle the women - often her opinions in a snide and agressive manner, to try and knock her confidence whilst building up his own.

This is then followed by an aggresive arguement where the man makes the women believe that it is her fault if she answers back - even in a constructive or jockular manner (trying to alleviate the serious situation).

However the man does not wish to be led into a situation to calm the waters by the women - he wants to test his power further - by really getting abusive verbally - maybe by making fun of the way she looks, what she reads or believes, how she walks or talks.

Next stage is the 'in your face' invading the womens space in an intimidating way.

Cutting off the women from family and friends who may be of support - isolating her and making her feel alone and dependent on the abuser is a very strong sign.

All the above is done to reduce the women to complience and to puff up the male and make him feel important, strong, intelligent and in control. Whilst in reality he is an egotistical inadequate, who likes to bully people to make him feel important.


Does the shoe fit? Recognise yourself there?

You seem to know a lot about it... Have to accept your wisdom based on experience..

[teaserh]

As I said in an earlier post - I worked with someone who went through a nightmare marriage - and remember her changing from a vibrant women to someone who was a shadow of herself. I read up on stalking and abuse from books in the library - but in the end just listening to her when she needed to talk was the best thing.

Listening and empathising with other peoples lives is the alternative to so much that is wrong with this world.

You don't always have to agree - you might think you know all the answers - but none of us do - but discussing in an open forum with out being agressive is a step in the right direction.

[Boy Perkins]

Perhaps a little more sensitivity when implying that there is a trend among e.g. footballers would not go amiss. Many people have personal or indirect experience of domestic abuse and as such should be expected to be more careful as to where they apply labels. To do so can be irresponsible and to react to this is hardly being agressive...

Others have experience of being wrongly accused of perpetrating abuse as a result of wild claims and assertions... also 'victims'. Jokes can be labelled to avoid offence..

[angrymammal]

Will men be able to use these rooms when the reverse situation happens?

Whilst the reverse is not frequent it does of course happen. However instead of having a saucepan thrown at them, the man is more likely to have a fat fryer full of boiling oil thrown at them!! Maybe exaggerating slightly but the consequences usually need more than just a room. Women and men are different in their domestic violence behaviour usually so not easy to replicate treatment...

Most female perpetrators are responding with violence to previous violence from their abusive partners, it is important that her offending is addressed but it is rare that the man has no responsibility.

[Boy Perkins]

Angrymammal wrote:-

Most female perpetrators are responding with violence to previous violence from their abusive partners,...

Is this statistically proven? Are not many male abusers those who were themselves abused or bullied at school? One can go back like this as much as you want in apportioning blame, but the end result is, and here I strongly agree with you, that the offending be addressed.

I was concerned that some may think it was a one sided matter. The sides are different but both matter. :)

[angrymammal]

Out of interest Perkins, How do you know about IDAP?

[Boy Perkins]

Rather not say, and it doesn't really matter... :)

[angrymammal]

Rather not say, and it doesn't really matter... :)
Fair do's, just interested as I'm an IDAP facilitator

[teaserh]

I do agree that many abusive partners - both male and female, as there are those on both sides of the sexual divide - often learn the behaviour from watching parents example.

Abuse to a child or watching a parent being abusive may result in adult abuse

but I hope it is not a set given - the chain I would think can be broken - it would help if teachers and care proffesionals could recognise and rescue children early on from these abusive homes, and break the pattern.

A bully in the class room - may grow up to be a bully in adult hood.

[Boy Perkins]

Rather not say, and it doesn't really matter... :)
Fair do's, just interested as I'm an IDAP facilitator

In that case I wish you every success in the work. It is a valuable contribution to the issue and deserves to succeed. :)

[Boy Perkins]

I do agree that many abusive partners - both male and female, as there are those on both sides of the sexual divide - often learn the behaviour from watching parents example.

Abuse to a child or watching a parent being abusive may result in adult abuse

but I hope it is not a set given - the chain I would think can be broken - it would help if teachers and care proffesionals could recognise and rescue children early on from these abusive homes, and break the pattern.

A bully in the class room - may grow up to be a bully in adult hood.

Think your sentiments spot on and totally agree that it should be possible to break the chain. Maybe, however, better if abuse in home can be stopped without child being removed but would not argue that this is always possible. Problem then becomes one of 'Remove to where?' Shifting problems around is a real worry... still, if enough people want it to happen. :)

[angrymammal]

Rather not say, and it doesn't really matter... :)
Fair do's, just interested as I'm an IDAP facilitator

In that case I wish you every success in the work. It is a valuable contribution to the issue and deserves to succeed. :)

Cheers, nice to hear from someone who's well informed.

[angrymammal]

I do agree that many abusive partners - both male and female, as there are those on both sides of the sexual divide - often learn the behaviour from watching parents example.

Abuse to a child or watching a parent being abusive may result in adult abuse

but I hope it is not a set given - the chain I would think can be broken - it would help if teachers and care proffesionals could recognise and rescue children early on from these abusive homes, and break the pattern.

A bully in the class room - may grow up to be a bully in adult hood.

The cylce you describe can and is often broken, but parents are only one source of atttitudes that justify and perpetuate relationship violence and abuse.

[Trent-Iffy]

Working in partneship wih a number of agencies that deal with such crimes, I can put my hand on my heart and say that I have strong reservations about such rooms.

In principle, there are a few boxes that such a woman has to tick before such "Target hardening" can be recommended. They include the fact that the victim will not be living with the perp and that there is a real risk of the perp harassing or intimidation the victim, including a liklihood that the perp will attack the victim.

The safe room is really a bad term, used by a minister who has no first hand knowledge of what the room is. The room would have hard-wood doors fitted, strengthend windows and a direct line or panic alarm to the Police. The truth is that the security of such a victim starts on the outside of the home with appropriate fencing, vegitation and plenty of opportunity for observation from Joe Public. Then you get to the external of the building itself, which may include cheap stuff like window locks and spy holes in the door and lighting. Also here you could include CCTV which is not as expensive as you'd think.

My concern is that the victim would probably move if they were harassed and the whole expense would be wasted and that the perp may get in and use the target hardened room as an area to take a hostage.

The premise behind this is to empower the victim to stay in the home and to keep costs down by not having to use refuges, emergency housing etc. In reality, there will be few who will qualify and those that do must surely be given support from the criminal justice system and the IDAP scheme for the perp.

Overall, I reckon it's not cost effective and has not been thought out well. Too many women's groups consulted who have no real idea about target hardening and security and who are too emotiomally involved in Domestic Abuse support to give a professional assessment of practical support available.

[The Myth Of Fingerprints]

It is just another stupid quick fix.

What they need to do is be positive when looking to prosecute the offenders and support the victim.

The CPS have an agreement that they will take positive action in cases of domestic violence but time after time they look for any excuse to drop the case because they are 'too difficult'.

[Trent-Iffy]

It is just another stupid quick fix.

What they need to do is be positive when looking to prosecute the offenders and support the victim.

The CPS have an agreement that they will take positive action in cases of domestic violence but time after time they look for any excuse to drop the case because they are 'too difficult'.

Don't start me on CPS!!!

I have noticed that since charging has been taken away from the Police and handed over to CPS, there have been less charges brought against offenders and more cautions. Now the government are bringing in Conditional Cautions, just like ASBOs in that if the offenders breach the conditions, nowt will be done!!! Argghh!!!

[Ian Mac]

A prison cell for the woman would be wholly unnecessary if the prison was made available to keep the violent man locked up until he was too old to effin walk.

[Cicero Grimes]

It is just another stupid quick fix.

What they need to do is be positive when looking to prosecute the offenders and support the victim.

The CPS have an agreement that they will take positive action in cases of domestic violence but time after time they look for any excuse to drop the case because they are 'too difficult'.

Don't start me on CPS!!!

I have noticed that since charging has been taken away from the Police and handed over to CPS, there have been less charges brought against offenders and more cautions. Now the government are bringing in Conditional Cautions, just like ASBOs in that if the offenders breach the conditions, nowt will be done!!! Argghh!!!

I've also noticed that there are a hell of a lot of people out on bail pending a charging decision who shouldn't be because some lazy sod refuses to make a decision until he has read the full file.

Which often takes months.

[juniorswailing]

Don't start me on bail.


Standard conditions include, 'that the offender will not commit any further crimes.'

Yet time and again you see people on multiple bails. The most I have seen is 9 bails.

[The Myth Of Fingerprints]

The biggest problem with domestics is there are normally no witnesses so it is easy for the CPS to say NFA.

Imgaine this scenario:

Neighbours call police to say they can hear the man next door beating his wife up in the kitchen.
Police turn up, man answers door and says his wife is out.
Police hear a moan from inside the house and push past him to find wife sat on kitchen floor with swelling and cut to eye.
Husband is arrested and on interview says that she attacked him and he put his hand out to defend himself causing her injury.
Wife and Neighbours both make statements against him. Wife says he punched her in face after dragging her around the kitchen.

CPS decision?

NFA because he has given a reasonable explanation and it is her word against his!

Positive action?

It is no wonder that the CPS are now hitting their target of 80% conviction at court. They are only running sure fire winners.

[Boy Perkins]

Myth, is this a real case? Do you have personal experience of this?
In many areas the police and CPS have adopted a zero tolerance to domestic abuse cases, much to the annoyance and criticism of many...

On the other hand I would agree that the CPS are now taking far more care in bringing matters to court only when they have case which stands up, but this is in the face of criticism that they were bringing forth too many without any substantiated evidence...

[Cicero Grimes]

Hello Perks.

Merry Christmas, by the way. If I haven't already said it.

I'm not sure if Myth's is a real case, but it sounds pretty real.

You are of course right. A much harder line has been taken recently insofar as 'domestic' incidents are concerned but the bottom line is that without a complainant, the case is going nowhere - and all that remains for the CPS to decide is not whether to proceed, but at what stage to drop the case.

These days police officers are equipped with digital cameras and an offender can be prosecuted on the evidence of the police only. A few have been, which is a step forward, but not nearly enough.

Frankly, if a woman is not willing to pursue the matter to court, for whatever reason, there is little chance of a succesful prosecution.

In my opinion, such as it is worth, domestic violence is still too easily accepted by society at large. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least three very famous sporting personalities and supposed role models who have in the past, exhibited physical violence towards their past or present partners. The thing is, their status ensures this completely unacceptable behaviour is subordinated and even swept to one side in the name of 'celebrity' where all transgressions are forgivable.

Just a thought.

[The Myth Of Fingerprints]

Perks,

The 'zero tolerance' agreement is often not supported by the CPS.

In my experience the police have taken it to heart. The CPS still look for any opportunity to drop a case.

They are more concerned with targets and figures than the effect on real people.
Now that they are able to ditch a case before it gets to court, they no longer even have to explain their decision to the victim.

Bobby is right that if the victim refuses to go to court, it is very very unlikely to get there.

In some cases (as above) even if the victim is willing to go to court, the CPS look for a way out.

Myth

[Boy Perkins]

Thanks for that Cicero and Myth.

I suspect there may be some geographical variation as my own personal experience is not quite in line with yours. However, this does not detract from the main thrust on which I think, and hope, we are all agreed.

Domestic abuse is not yet fully recognised for what it is... more work to be done!

[Cicero Grimes]

I think you could be right about geographical variations Perks.

I know the digital camera thing is force policy through Greater Manchester and has been in place for a year or so. I can't speak for anywhere else but I don't think neighbouring Cheshire or Lancashire have them. But then again, I don't have that much experience of either of those forces.

[The Myth Of Fingerprints]

Perks and Bobby,

You are both right about Geography.

Even in the same force but a different area the experience is very different. Each CPS office seems to apply the policy in it's own way.

Digital Cameras are widespread and cases can go to court even with the victim asking for it not to but they rarely do. In those cases a bind over is normal though.

In Canada they have had a succesful domestic violence policy since the 80's where it is the police who take the offender to court, not the victim. We are slowly catching up.

Myth

[juniorswailing]

In Scotland, as you may well know, the PF takes cases to court.

All Scottish Forces are working to the same principle at the moment and that is if there is the slightest piece of corroboration to the complainer's version, then the offender will be kept for court the next day. Assuming he or she is traced at that time.

This takes the heat off the Police to an extent because it means that their hands are tied and the old attitude of it 'just being a domestic' is long gone.

However, the PF still needs evidence to proceed and I know for a fact that a lot (don't know the numbers) of custodies are being released prior to them going into court to be dealt with by way of a summons for a later date as the 'slighest piece of corroboration' is quite often just that. Slight.

[Trent-Iffy]

Some forces are now adopting CCTV cameras in clothing so that when they arrive at Domestic Violence cases, they can evidence the situation for better chances of prosecution.

It is so important that the first officer on scene knows what to look for to corroborate stories given, such as demeanor of both parties, scene preservation for signs of disturbance, injuries, defence injuries etc. It seems' however, in this day and age, CPS only want to take these cases forward if they have film footage, so perhaps the mini-cameras in the clothing is the way ahead.

[Boy Perkins]

Some forces are now adopting CCTV cameras in clothing so that when they arrive at Domestic Violence cases, they can evidence the situation for better chances of prosecution.

It is so important that the first officer on scene knows what to look for to corroborate stories given, such as demeanor of both parties, scene preservation for signs of disturbance, injuries, defence injuries etc. It seems' however, in this day and age, CPS only want to take these cases forward if they have film footage, so perhaps the mini-cameras in the clothing is the way ahead.

Given the need to confront the aggressor with the reality of their offending during any rehabilitation it would seem to offer considerable assistance pre and post conviction...

[Boy Perkins]

Sorry folks, didn't spot the debug warning...

[Boy Perkins]

Ignore

[Boy Perkins]

ditto